One quick note: I do have to apologize for painting with a wide brush. I said "atheists" where I meant to say "these atheists." I should have said that explicitly.
And I just realized, since when do Buddhists believe in reincarnation? I guess I need to brush up on modern Buddhism.
- Björk wrote:
The Buddhists say we come back as animals and they refer to them as lesser beings. Well, animals aren't lesser beings, they're just like us. So I say fuck the Buddhists.
Anyhow, on with the post:
- EvilHippyEmperor wrote:
The problem is that the law hinges on assessing a person's intent, rather than just considering their words or actions.
...
Am I blaspheming when I speak to them, but not to you?
This is really the crux of the matter, and your points are well made, but law often does this. It charges people with possession of controlled substances with intent to sell. Intent is the crux of matters involving corruption and bribery. Matters of sexual propriety from inappropriate conduct to rape often hinge around notions involving intention, as judges and jurors can attest.
Now, I'm not denying this is a sticky wicket. It's very difficult to know for certain what a person's motives are a lot of the time, and were I a judge (which I'm not, thank goodness) I would dismiss those cases where it was difficult to judge - if you can't know, you can't know and there's no case.
However, I believe that in the proper interpretation of this law, it is designed to stop people from deliberately causing riots, and that falls within the jurisdiction of the law. Moreover, I think it's quite obvious when people are trying to do such a thing.
It's similar to treason - I am free to criticize my government, but I am not free to actively undermine it and try to develop rebellion against it. I think this is natural and understandable; again in the context that Law exists to maintain Order.
This does not mean that anti-treason laws cannot and have not been extensively abused. That's a plain fact of history - but it's part of another discussion. Law and Law Enforcement are separate things, as too few people see. The fact that a law can be abused is no argument against that law, but an argument against corruption in law enforcement.
Similarly there's the problem of rape. Let me set the backdrop by saying that rape is bad and that all rapists should be buried in an anthill until we can think of something worse. That in mind, if a woman cries "rape," how do you know? I have friends (female, of course) who've told me stories of girls who didn't like someone so they sent him to jail - it's a simple thing to do, and they bragged about it later since it's so very funny.
To me, this doesn't mean that laws forbidding rape are bad - in fact they're necessary. It does mean that proof and enforcement are tricky things, and you should rule (again, rulings belonging to Law Enforcement, not Law) on the side of caution when it comes to removing a person's liberty, whether that be sending a man to jail or squelching political slogans. It comes to the matter of Burden of Proof. If you can't prove it, let it be.
- EvilHippyEmperor wrote:
They are saying that it is wrong to silence people to protect ideas. Not just atheists, all religions. They include a quote insulting to atheists because atheism should be as open to debate and criticism as any other belief.
I simply missed the quote insulting to atheists, and though that does mitigate things quite a bit, I still say that these things can be handled without deliberate insult, and deliberate insult is easy to catch in certain circumstances. This is one of those, even if they're insulting atheists. The obvious and stated intent is not explicitly to provoke discussion so much as simply to insult. I think you can provoke discussion without being insulting, even while I do agree there are a few loose canons out there who will be insulted by things that are not insulting. My point is that it is wrong to be
obviously insulting - if that is your clear motive.
- EvilHippyEmperor wrote:
Statements such as "Jesus Saves" are visible outside churches in any town.
Theists consider they have the right to knock uninvited on our doors and assail us with their own beliefs, usually presented as facts.
I hold these as quite separate. Advertisement of an idea such as "Jesus Saves" I don't think is really invasive, or at least no more so than "best burgers in town" or "vacation in sunny Cancun."
Proselytizing as some purported Christians do by knocking on doors and assailing is not only impolite and insulting, but highly ineffective. I would not oppose a law against it.
In summery, not I do not believe you've ever done something for the purpose of insulting me and setting me off. I further believe that you have the common sense necessary to exercise varying levels of tact depending on how delicate the situation seems. Similarly with me, I've said things that
some might call insulting to you, but never if I thought you weren't man enough to take it with a chuckle and answer intelligently. I don't think you're trying to incite violence, and that's the point of this law.
Now if we're worried about ABUSE of this law, then I'm barking up the wrong tree entirely, that's a whole different discussion.