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 Patriarchal society: good or bad?

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Onyx
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PostSubject: Patriarchal society: good or bad?   Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:44 pm

Ok so pretty much everyone knows that we have a patriarchal society. some people like that but it really pisses me off. i dont know why maybe its just a hidden feminist side in me that i never knew about. so what do you guys think?
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PostSubject: Re: Patriarchal society: good or bad?   Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:56 pm

I think it is what it is. Men "run the world" because they are biologically wired to be dominating. Our society has picked up on that and they are raised to be socially dominating. Girls who are dominant are frowned on as aggressive and pushy and when they grow up are "bitches". But i think on a deeper level it really is about biology to a point.

I read Bust so i see a lot of chicks doing a lot of cool things.

Can you give us some examples of what makes you mad?

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PostSubject: Re: Patriarchal society: good or bad?   Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:26 pm

Ok my anger mostly started when i got sick of the christian religion. its also based at my prejudice against the male race. (no im not sexist i just dont trust them) But with men ruling not just households but pretty much everything. like this past year when Hillary tried running for president there was a huge controversy but when say her husband ran there wasnt. it just pisses me off
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PostSubject: Re: Patriarchal society: good or bad?   Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:18 pm

Anyone has a hard time debating against emotion so i just don't bother. But to pick hairs you cant really say "I'm not sexist i just don't trust them (men)". If the reason you don't trust them is because they are men then it is sexist.

And there are a plethora of reasons to be anti-christian only one of them is about it being power dominated by men.

One must also wonder who is raising little boys into the kind of men you seem to dislike? Most little boys are raised by a female figure. SO at what point do we as women deiced to turn are cute little guys into men we don't seem to like? If you ask me women have always had a certain amount of power over the people that "control the world".

I am a stay at home mom and my husband goes out and works. I get a lot of shit from my fem friends. But the truth is my husband doesn't rule our home. I don't think either sex should rule over the other. Balance in all things is to be desired. Though hard to achieve it is worth the work .

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PostSubject: Re: Patriarchal society: good or bad?   Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:33 pm

I think that nowadays gender identity is largely more important than biological sex. Women displaying aggressive, masculine traits are welcome in the boardroom, and men who display nurturing qualities are accepted as nannies.
I think that this is absolutely a reflection of how things should be. Nurturing traits are not useful in an aggressive environment, and vice-versa.


So in terms of a patriarchal society, I agree. It's undeniably a part of the fabric of our culture. But we are, in this day and age, enlightened enough not to automatically assign meek/aggressive qualities to someone based on their sex. And that is a reflection of how far feminism has come, and, IMO, how far it should go.


More 'womanly' women still have influence over decisions made. A tired husband asking his wife's opinion when they are relaxing in the evening, for example, is and always has been commonplace. And, indeed, often the perspective of a nurturer leads the aggressor to a greater understanding.
Both ways of thinking have their place, but it's for the aggressive to figurehead the ideas formed. Otherwise those ideas are trampled by the other, more aggressive figureheads.
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PostSubject: Re: Patriarchal society: good or bad?   Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:30 am

Okay, I gotta go lay down again because ow and stuff but I just couldn't resist being an evil little bugger and asking the trick question.

Which Christian religion?

There are 30,000 + of them, with wildly varying views on gender roles.
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PostSubject: Re: Patriarchal society: good or bad?   Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:05 pm

PorcelainPirate wrote:
But we are, in this day and age, enlightened enough not to automatically assign meek/aggressive qualities to someone based on their sex.
Anyone here brave enough to try assigning a meek role to Kasmira just because she is female?

Nope, didn't think so...
Very Happy


PorcelainPirate wrote:
More 'womanly' women still have influence over decisions made. A tired husband asking his wife's opinion when they are relaxing in the evening, for example, is and always has been commonplace. And, indeed, often the perspective of a nurturer leads the aggressor to a greater understanding.
I'd just like to observe that Genghis Khan openly took advice from both his wife Borte, and his mother in council at a time when tradition dictated that his womenfolk were simply his property*.

It seems to me that the traditionally feminine 'relationship orientated' approach has had as much effect on history as the more masculine 'goal orientated' approach, but is far more subtle and less well recorded.
Men have changed the world by going into battle, women have changed the world by ensuring that the right two people sit next to each other at dinner.

Men and women are (typically) very different in their outlook, but as long as there is mutual respect, this need not be a bad thing.

(*The more you read of the Great Khan, the more you realise how much he genuinely loved his first wife, and one is forced to wonder how much of a hand Borte had in writing her husband's surprisingly egalitarian laws.)

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PostSubject: Re: Patriarchal society: good or bad?   Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:57 pm

Gomez wrote:
Okay, I gotta go lay down again because ow and stuff but I just couldn't resist being an evil little bugger and asking the trick question.

Which Christian religion?

There are 30,000 + of them, with wildly varying views on gender roles.
Perhaps whilst Onyx answers that you could jot down a quick list for us of the major Christian religions that you don't consider to be patriarchal in nature?

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PostSubject: Re: Patriarchal society: good or bad?   Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:19 pm

Depends on how you mean "patriarchal." Personally, I find nothing patriarchal about Catholicism, seeing as historically, Religious Sisters have owned and operated schools, hospitals, universities, abbeys, and done a fair share of missionary work (except in places where they're likely to get killed... we generally send the menfolk in to get barbecued). Whereas the male ordained role is more one of servitude, at least in theory. Obviously, as with any system it's easy to drudge up examples where the practice hasn't meshed with the proscription, most notably in Medieval Europe which was just a mess on all accounts. A fascinating mess, but nonetheless horrific.

Nonetheless, Catholicism is often pointed out as patriarchal, simply because the sexes have separate roles in the Church. "Women can't be priests, how bigoted!" Just once, I'd love to see someone with a protest sign decrying the Church's sexist restrictions on male nuns. Twisted Evil

The Orthodox religions are pretty much the same in this regard, I'd think.

So if that's your beef, you've got the Anglicans and their descendants, who have priestesses and female bishops (still no male nuns Crying or Very sad ).

Then you've got the Lutherans, who don't have nuns or consecrated women of any sort that I'm aware of, but do have priests (who don't call themselves priests, but pastors) and who I think are exclusively male... at least in the major branches.

Calvinists (Baptists and such) I think might actually be one of the more patriarchal groups out there, but there are so many hundreds of different flavors of Calvinist that you can't really make a blanket statement about them. In general, I don't talk about these guys much because they hurt my head. I've tried really hard (with witnesses even!) to figure out what they're saying, and it just goes round and round in circles.

And then you're off into random modern Protestantism... the miscellaneous Pentecostals, Evangelicals, and Fundamentalists. Assembly of God, Four Square, Evangelical Free (is that like Pepsi Free?), Church on the Rock... so many that any attempt at a comprehensive list would just be folly.

Then, depending on what you mean by "Christian," the term could even be used to include things like the Seventh Day Adventists, Christian Scientists, or Mormons (talk about patriarchal!).
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PostSubject: Re: Patriarchal society: good or bad?   Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:29 pm

Gomez wrote:
Depends on how you mean "patriarchal."
I'm quite happy to go with the Cambridge online dictionary:
"ruled or controlled by men"

Before I say any more, do please understand that I am not against patriarchies per se. Obviously I am a firm advocate of a (reasonably) benign dictatorship with myself at the head, but beyond that I think what matters is not how the rulership of a 'society' is formed, but rather how it treats its people.

Gomez wrote:

Personally, I find nothing patriarchal about Catholicism, seeing as historically, Religious Sisters have owned and operated schools, hospitals, universities, abbeys, and done a fair share of missionary work (except in places where they're likely to get killed... we generally send the menfolk in to get barbecued). Whereas the male ordained role is more one of servitude, at least in theory. Obviously, as with any system it's easy to drudge up examples where the practice hasn't meshed with the proscription, most notably in Medieval Europe which was just a mess on all accounts. A fascinating mess, but nonetheless horrific.

Nonetheless, Catholicism is often pointed out as patriarchal, simply because the sexes have separate roles in the Church. "Women can't be priests, how bigoted!" Just once, I'd love to see someone with a protest sign decrying the Church's sexist restrictions on male nuns. Twisted Evil
Sorry, I don't quite see how that argument holds up.

Certainly women play an active and important role in Catholicism, but the apocryphal Pope Joan not withstanding, the ruling body of the Catholic Church is patriarchal in nature. The Pope, the College of Cardinals, the bishops etc are all male.

I don't know to what degree the various female monastic orders are self governing, but I am given to understand they fall under the rule of the vatican in the same way that their male counterparts do (and I am sure that a few female Dominicans would also liven up the image of that order no end!! Twisted Evil )

Gomez wrote:

The Orthodox religions are pretty much the same in this regard, I'd think.

So if that's your beef, you've got the Anglicans and their descendants, who have priestesses and female bishops (still no male nuns Crying or Very sad ).
Yep I'd agree with you there, although I am slightly worried by your fascination with male nuns, which is only a minor inconvenience, even if I would look rather fetching in Carmelite robes...

Gomez wrote:

Then you've got the Lutherans, who don't have nuns or consecrated women of any sort that I'm aware of, but do have priests (who don't call themselves priests, but pastors) and who I think are exclusively male... at least in the major branches.
Isn't that rather saying that they are patriarchies?

Gomez wrote:

Calvinists (Baptists and such) I think might actually be one of the more patriarchal groups out there, but there are so many hundreds of different flavors of Calvinist that you can't really make a blanket statement about them. In general, I don't talk about these guys much because they hurt my head. I've tried really hard (with witnesses even!) to figure out what they're saying, and it just goes round and round in circles.
I know just what you mean. Very Happy

Gomez wrote:

And then you're off into random modern Protestantism... the miscellaneous Pentecostals, Evangelicals, and Fundamentalists. Assembly of God, Four Square, Evangelical Free (is that like Pepsi Free?), Church on the Rock... so many that any attempt at a comprehensive list would just be folly.

Then, depending on what you mean by "Christian," the term could even be used to include things like the Seventh Day Adventists, Christian Scientists, or Mormons (talk about patriarchal!).
Don't even get me started on the Mormons...

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PostSubject: Re: Patriarchal society: good or bad?   Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:10 pm

Honestly, my knowledge of Christianity in its many forms is largely superficial, so I don't really feel that I have much to add on that subject.

But, before we lose ourselves entirely in the religious side of the discussion, I just wanted to add that, while I don't really live my life in a particularly 'female' way, I've always been fascinated by the amount of subtlety and cleverness involved in the 'female approach'. I have a huge amount of admiration for the matriarchs who can take on the world in a quiet battle of wits every day, and I wouldn't mind growing up to be like that myself Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Patriarchal society: good or bad?   Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:46 am

On further consideration, I think it imperative that nunneries are kept exclusively female. Otherwise it will spell the end for the fine old comedy tradition that no matter how brawny, hirsuite and masculine a man is, upon donning a nun's habit everyone he meets will believe him to be female.

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PostSubject: Re: Patriarchal society: good or bad?   Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:29 pm

EvilHippyEmperor wrote:

Sorry, I don't quite see how that argument holds up.

Certainly women play an active and important role in Catholicism, but the apocryphal Pope Joan not withstanding, the ruling body of the Catholic Church is patriarchal in nature. The Pope, the College of Cardinals, the bishops etc are all male.

I suppose the point is the word "ruling." See, the majestarium isn't necessarily supposed to "rule." I'm not saying it hasn't (see icky Medieval Europe again) and that it doesn't to some extent today, I'm just saying it's not MEANT to... so we've got several facets going on here.

The bishops, Cardinals, etc., are supposed to be a teaching body. As a matter of fact, though, they often are a governing body. So I'd say that in that sense, the Church is patriarchal de facto but not de jure. I don't know if the distinction is even visible to an outsider, but it matters to me as I'm a rather de jure Christian. I don't believe in "What Catholics Believe" for a minute. I believe in "What Christianity Is." Sometimes these overlap, often they don't. So anyway, you're dealing with two different things called "Catholicism." The theory and the practice. They ought to be the same, but well, that's the funny thing about "ought."

In the theoretical Church (which does exist in practice to some extent) there is less patriarchy than in the practical Church (which does adhere to theory in some regards).

EvilHippyEmperor wrote:

I don't know to what degree the various female monastic orders are self governing, but I am given to understand they fall under the rule of the vatican in the same way that their male counterparts do (and I am sure that a few female Dominicans would also liven up the image of that order no end!! Twisted Evil )

Well... yes, they're beholden to the Holy See in a sense, but not as regards governance. Monastic orders of either gender are self-governing. What they CAN'T do is contradict the dogmas of the Church or conduct their public affairs in a way that is openly sinful (participating in genocide or something like that), because to do so would simply mean they were no longer Catholic, and hence not a Catholic order. The Pope has the final say on what conforms to dogma, so in that sense, he has some authority over them, but as far as what they do for a living, where they build, what they build, when they work, when they rest, who's in charge of the monastery, what the habits look like, what projects they undertake, how they do their taxes, etc., etc., the Vatican is unconcerned, and not authoritative. Many popes make suggestions, but Benedict XVI can't just walk into a Carmelite monastery in Milwaukee and say, "Okay, you three make pies, you paint this room blue, and you show me your financial records for 2005!"

And just for the sake of being annoying, female Dominicans look like this:


EvilHippyEmperor wrote:

Gomez wrote:

Then you've got the Lutherans, who don't have nuns or consecrated women of any sort that I'm aware of, but do have priests (who don't call themselves priests, but pastors) and who I think are exclusively male... at least in the major branches.
Isn't that rather saying that they are patriarchies?

Quite.

EvilHippyEmperor wrote:

Don't even get me started on the Mormons...
Yeah, my wife used to be one. That was an interesting research project. I still haven't gotten over the shock.
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PostSubject: Re: Patriarchal society: good or bad?   Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:08 am

Gomez wrote:
...Benedict XVI can't just walk into a Carmelite monastery in Milwaukee and say, "Okay, you three make pies, you paint this room blue, and you show me your financial records for 2005!"
Blast, there go my plans for a "Papal Cookery Makeover" show!

Gone the same way as "Imams Do The Funniest Things"...

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PostSubject: Re: Patriarchal society: good or bad?   Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:18 pm

Blast it all, what happened to my picture of Dominican nuns? And why is this thread so narrow? Well, anyhow...

As PorcelainPirate points out, enough about religion, what about the concept of Patriarchy itself?

I'm not opposed to it in principle, but think that like any form of governance it works best on paper. No form of government, be it of the home, the nation, or the grocery store, is perfect. They all contain vital flaws. Patriarchy is an obvious one to see the flaw in. Like despotism, it works fine as long as the person running the show knows what the heck he's doing. If you've got loving, self sacrificing, brave, strong, handsome, intelligent men at the helm, Patriarchy's great. Conversely, if you've got flawless women running things, Matriarchy's fine. If you've got nimrods running things, it doesn't matter what else they are, they're still nimrods.

I do think that in practice patriarchy tends to work best, but there's no real point in even saying that. See men (with notable exceptions) tend to be more aggressive, assertive, and overall ruling than women (with notable exceptions).

I think the fact that we've never had a woman president is more indicative of the fact that we've had far fewer female presidential candidates to pick from, historically, than we have male ones. The odds swamped them.

Now, I've been down this road before, and women will be quick to point out that there aren't female presidential candidates because men just don't allow it. They put them down. They keep them under their heel.

Well, just a dang minute. How'd you all get under that heel in the first place? Back in the 1500s, women were second-class, because a good sword-arm was what meant power. A few girls here and there had that arm, but by and large men could beat up women so they were in charge. That system largely died with the enlightenment, and the last vestiges of it withered with Suffrage. Women can now vote, and hold any job a man can (I'll get to wage discrepancy in a minute), and generally have the same political weight, person for person, as men. Nobody cares who you can punch out in the modern political arena. Add to this the fact that women (very slightly) outnumber men, and that they control all the vaginas in the world, and it quickly becomes apparent that if women wanted to rule the world, they would... or already do. If women are in a subordinate role, they either put themselves there or else didn't bother to pull themselves out. And why? Because the bulk of women don't go out and battle and conquer and march and fight... not the way men do. They fight in their own way, subtly, unnoticeably, behind the scenes, and unstoppably. Women fight with brain, not brawn, and in an analogous sense, this is true in the political arena as well.

Women don't become president and propose we build huge dams and such, but they are the grease in the political engine that makes the society run. If they don't want something to happen (as a whole), you're not going to see protests and demonstrations and guns and tear gas, what you're going to see is just a whole lot of whatever that is they don't like simply not happening. It won't get off the ground and will never fly.

That said, I think that it's not so much a question of "which sex is in charge?" as it is a question of "what is each sex in charge of?" Men rule the male world, women rule the female world. These two are neither separate nor identical, but superimposed upon one another.

It seems to me that loud, angry feminism is the result of the problem of un-subtle women being unable to see that women actually do run the world. The male world is louder, angrier, harder to miss. To understand what the women are doing, you have to look close. Men tend to be blunt, and only stick to what they can see, which is the male world. Certain mannish women are not sufficiently nuanced to see how the game is played, and so don't see any more of the world than your average man sees.

So, with all that said, I'm still wondering about my original question:
How come women are supposed to be as naked as possible, and men as covered up as possible at the high school dance? I'm still sticking to my theory that men in general like the sight of female skin and women in general are indifferent at best to male skin. This of course presupposes that fashion is dictated by the preference of the opposite sex, which is in fact my position.


EDIT:
D'oh! I never got to wage discrepancy! Well... according several girls I know who have looked into this, they say that sometimes women do earn equal pay for equal work, but they tend to lose out in longevity, because they quit jobs to have babies. Then you have the flipside of the coin where companies tend to prefer to hire men because they don't get pregnant and quit their job. I have no idea if there's truth to this. That's just what I hear. Has anyone here actually studied the reasons for wage discrepancy? I don't feel qualified to speak to it, personally.
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PostSubject: Re: Patriarchal society: good or bad?   Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:13 pm

OHOH! I know that one! The narrow thread thing is cuz of the avatar mess up. Onyx needs to re-upload/relink her avatar so it resizes itself propely.

The rest of it's pretty much mumbo jumbo. I have no idea what you're all talking about. Who cares about patriarchal or whatever? Kick some ass and take names. It works for Kas.
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PostSubject: Re: Patriarchal society: good or bad?   Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:49 am

This is the balance of power in my house...


Man : "bla bla bla"
Woman : "I have the vagina, i win!

See easy-peasy.

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PostSubject: Re: Patriarchal society: good or bad?   Sun Oct 25, 2009 3:31 am

Yeah it's similar here.

Man: blah blah blah
Woman: PMT Evil or Very Mad
Man: I'll shut up now...
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PostSubject: Re: Patriarchal society: good or bad?   Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:01 pm

Well, Onyx started it, but in all fairness, this thread is really PorcelainPirate's fault. I'm only here because I want to know why girls outfits show leg chest and stuff and boys' don't.
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PostSubject: Re: Patriarchal society: good or bad?   Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:56 am

Because generally men go straight up and down and women have bumpy bits. The exception is body builders who don't need measurements because they rarely wear shirts.
/end gnome logic.
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PostSubject: Re: Patriarchal society: good or bad?   Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:10 pm

Gomez wrote:
Well, Onyx started it,
I don't care who started it...
Gomez wrote:
but in all fairness, this thread is really PorcelainPirate's fault.
And don't go telling tales...
(Sorry. These first couple of lines really brought out the parent in me!)
Gomez wrote:
I'm only here because I want to know why girls outfits show leg chest and stuff and boys' don't.
Who cares?
Just be glad they do!

cheers Happy Dance Excited

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PostSubject: Re: Patriarchal society: good or bad?   Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:24 pm

Ok so with not logging on in a week this thread has gone so far i dont know what to comment on first.

the type of christianity i was referring to was the protestants.
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PostSubject: Re: Patriarchal society: good or bad?   Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:46 am

Onyx wrote:
Ok so with not logging on in a week this thread has gone so far i dont know what to comment on first.
That'll happen a lot. You'll get used to it.

EvilHippyEmperor wrote:
Gomez wrote:
Well, Onyx started it,
I don't care who started it...
Gomez wrote:
but in all fairness, this thread is really PorcelainPirate's fault.
And don't go telling tales...
(Sorry. These first couple of lines really brought out the parent in me!)
Gomez wrote:
I'm only here because I want to know why girls outfits show leg chest and stuff and boys' don't.
Who cares?
Just be glad they do!

cheers Happy Dance Excited
It sounds just like Lock Shock and Barrel...
Quote :
Shock: [singing] I wish my cohorts weren't so dumb.
Barrel: *I'm* not the dumb one.
Lock: You're no fun!
Shock: Shut up!
Lock: Make me!
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